...in the house of David Jacoby, who was a friend of his.
And I asked David, I said, "Would you go help me?"
He was with me probably...
...2:00 or 3:00 in the morning.
May the 6th.
Jacoby here is kind of a witness.
He never had this window of opportunity to perpetrate a crime like that...
...because he was with him for such a long period of time.
We got a sample of David Jacoby's DNA voluntarily...
...and the analysis came back to say that another hair...
...that was found on a tree stump by the ditch where the bodies were found...
...was consistent with David Jacoby's DNA.
I wasn't even aware that he went to David Jacoby's.
According to Terry, he was walking the streets and searching the whole night.
So that was news to me when I found out.
Is there anything you can think of that we hadn't gone over?
That we hadn't asked, something you remembered through the years?
You'd thought they would do a meaningful interview with Terry Hobbs.
It was as if they were sitting out on the back porch just sharing a beer.
"We know you didn't have much to do with this.
Just, you know, for old time's sake, why don't you describe again...
...how you didn't have anything to do with this?"
It didn't have the atmosphere of a serious interrogation at all.
You know, I don't know what happened...
...out there in them woods that night.
Mike Allen, the lead investigator at the time...
...and now the sheriff of Crittenden County...
...issued a statement saying Terry Hobbs was not a suspect then...
...and he's not a suspect now.
A question that has got to be asked is that why have they so staunchly...
...refused to regard him as a person of interest?
There. Terry, appreciate it, man.
As we sit here today, there are 272 post-conviction DNA exonerations.
DNA is the essential element to prove their innocence...
...and these people have done more than 3500 years in prison.
On the other hand, there are many, many cases...
...where there's been DNA that's helpful, as in the West Memphis Three case...
...because it does shed light on other suspects.
And it does put particular significance on the absence of evidence.
There's an old phrase in the forensic science business...
...that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Yeah, that's true.
On the other hand, when you have DNA testing...
...and you've gone through every piece of trace evidence at a crime scene...
...and you find nothing that links the defendants...
...who have been convicted to the crime, that is significant.
This may be Damien Echols' final appeal at the state level.
If his arguments are denied, the case then jumps into federal court.
A decision is expected in about a week.
All the investigative findings, the scientific results...
...including the DNA, all of that is going to be presented to Judge Burnett.
Finally, Judge Burnett can consider this case with all this new information...
...that wasn't available to him or the prosecution back in 1994.
And so we were looking forward to having him reevaluate the case.
We really had high hopes.
We wanted to give the attorney general some sense that it was coming.
We told him that there'd be these DNA results...
...and we got into a discussion.
What would you have to show to get a new trial?
And there was a point of laughter where one of them said:
"We're gonna set this bar as high as we possibly can.
Which is to say, we're gonna try and get a court to rule...
...that it is really impossible to ever win under the Arkansas DNA statute."
People ask us what we're gonna do whenever I'm out, when we're together.
And we do talk about that.
For Lorri and I, life isn't something that will happen one day down the road.
You know, we're together now, here.
We're not just in a state of suspended animation, waiting.
He was 21, I guess, when I met him.
He hadn't yet really started studying at that point, so it was kind of funny.
You know, I was in a different place in my life, and-- But now...
...I mean, I would ask him for advice before I would ask anybody.
I send him a lot of used books, and it is really fascinating to look at.
Because when I'm reading a book or when he's reading...
...then we're going through-- As everyone does in their life.
--you're going through specific things.
You have 90 seconds...
...left on this call.
Uh, I don't normally read a lot of fiction anymore.
I haven't for several years...
...but a couple of days ago, someone sent me the new Stephen King book.
You know, I started reading his books when I was probably...
...10 or 11 years old.
People have always undervalued him.
You know, they look at him as this, um, hack.
This hack writer who churns out...
...horror novels.
In all of his books at the end...
...he always addresses the reader.
You know, he thanks you for going on this voyage with him...
...and so I wanted to read it to you.
"All right, I think we've been down here in the dark long enough.
There's a whole other world upstairs.
Take my hand, constant reader...
...and I'll be happy to lead you back into the sunshine.
I'm happy to go there...
...because I believe most people are essentially good.
I know that I am.
It's you I'm not entirely sure of."
A judge says no to new trial.
Judge Burnett made it clear that DNA evidence isn't enough for a new trial...
...or to overturn the conviction.
David Burnett wouldn't hear the new evidence.
He complete-- He denied it without even hearing it.
What can you do? I mean, in our minds, we started to entertain the idea...
...that Damien might be executed.
My life would have been a lot simpler if I hadn't been involved in that case.
I had to fiddle with it for 18 years and get beaten over the head by folks...
...that were opposed to what happened.
But I didn't pick and choose, I just took what came down the pipe.
It's not unusual for post-conviction motions...
...to be made in front of the judge that originally heard the trial.
The theory behind that is the judge who originally heard the trial...
...saw all the witnesses testify...
...and is in the best position to evaluate the new evidence.
But all of us are victims of bias that we don't even understand or know...
...and sometimes you have to abandon hypotheses...
...that you've relied on in the past...
...and try to freshly evaluate the evidence.
All of this hoop-de-la about newly discovered evidence.
There is no newly discovered evidence.
All of the evidence that was found originally at the trial scene.
Judge David Burnett finally decides to stand for Senate.
We hoped like hell that he would get elected.
Because once he was elected to Senate...
...he was unable to have anything to do with this case anymore.
So Judge Burnett heard what he heard...
...and he and his jury made their decision.
It was up to people from all over the world, and that would be you.
And the people next to you right now...
...coming together to make some real justice happen.
I would like to read something to you guys.
"I can't remember what it's like to walk as a human being anymore.
It's been well over 16 years since I've actually walked anywhere.
There are times when I've thought...
...surely, someone is gonna put a stop to this.
Oh, well, it does no good to dwell on it.
Either I waste my energy by focusing on things I cannot change...
...or I conserve my energy, and apply it to small things I can change."
Each small thing connects to make a great, big thing.
And that big thing is to bring those boys back home.
This is something I came across today...
...and it's just a small paragraph of one of Damien's letters from this February.
"The thing I like most about time is that it's not real. It's all in the head.
There's no such thing as the past, it exists only in the memory.
There's no such thing as the future, it exists only in our imagination.
If our watches were truly accurate, the only thing they would ever say...
...is 'now.'"
And that's what time it is. Now.
One day, I get a phone call from my manager...
...saying Terry Hobbs is suing me.
"Dearest Lorri, are the Dixie Chicks fighting this?
This is a great opportunity to give Terry Hobbs his day in court...
...get all the facts out in the open and let a jury decide."
You swear to tell nothing but the truth...
- ...so help you God? - I do.
- State your name for the record, sir. - Terry Hobbs.
You can put your hand down now.
Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen why you sued my client?
All of the emotions, distress, the anger.
That her statements caused you?
- Correct. - I didn't say anything about him.
I had no intentions of finger-pointing at Terry Hobbs.
I don't even know that Terry Hobbs did it.
I sort of asked my attorney, "Why would he be doing this?"
He was confident that he was gonna win...
...and he was gonna get millions of dollars.
I think he's gutsy.
He had to have been warned that if he did that, he would have to be deposed...
...which he was, and have to answer questions.
We gave Natalie's attorney, D'Lesli Davis...
...access to our investigative files on Terry, his background...
...his relationship with Stevie. And it enabled them to basically...
...sit him down and to finally question him...
...in a way that he had never, ever been questioned about this murder before.
Describe your reputation, other than "a good man." What else would it be?
A hard-working man, good dad, good husband in the past.
Pretty good man.
- Are you an honest fellow? - I try my best.
- Law-abiding man? - I do pretty good at it.
We started doing background on Terry.
I went to Garland County because I knew he had lived there before...
...specifically to interview his ex-wife. And it raised some flags at that point.
She told me he had gotten in trouble. I went to the court records...
...in Garland County and pulled the incident involving Mildred French.
Let me give you a minute to go through the declaration of Mildred French.
- All right. - Have you read it?
No, I'm not going to.
- Why not? - It don't mean nothing to me.
- Why doesn't it mean anything to you? - It just don't.
Mildred French was a neighbour of yours back in the '80s, wasn't she?
I don't remember.
Paragraph number four, "On one occasion I heard a baby crying...
...and sounds that indicated to me that Terry Hobbs was beating his wife...
- ...and/or his child." - She kind of let out a cry...
...and then I heard the baby.
"I ran next door to Terry's unit...
...and rang the bell to Terry Hobbs' residence."
He said it was none of my business...
...and I said, "I'm making it my business, you do it again."
I said, "Because I've heard you before."
- Do you recall she was your neighbour? - Some old woman was.
"A few months later, I worked outside in my yard.
I went inside my home to take a shower and get cleaned up."
And I got out of the tub and when I was reaching in to get the towel....
"Terry Hobbs, who had broken in...
...and somehow gotten upstairs into my bathroom...."
I didn't see him come into the bathroom. He just grabbed me on my breasts.
"I screamed at Terry loudly, 'What are you doing in my house?'
- And screamed, 'Get out!'" - He said:
- "I kept repeating loudly." - "Get out of my house!"
"And ultimately Terry ran out of my home and ran downstairs into his unit."
What is your recollection of those events--?
- I don't have any. - Let me finish.
What is your recollection of the reason that the police were called...
...and those events that Ms French remembers so clearly?
I don't have any.
"I said to Terry, 'Tell them what you did to me.'
Terry looked at me square in the eye and said calmly, 'It never happened.'
I looked at Terry and told him, 'You are a liar and you are sick.'"
And I say, "You know, you're sick." And he says, "Yeah, I'm sick."
I never did like him, I mean....
Even when Pam first married him...
...there was just always something. He creeped me out.
- Do you lose your temper very often? - No.
- Pretty even-keeled guy? - Try to be.
He's got a look that's plum evil...
...and when that look of evil comes over him, you know, I know he's mad.
- What-- What's this? - It is a judgement...
...against one Terry W. Hobbs for aggravated assault in '94...
...in conjunction with the shooting of your brother-in-law.
Is that your signature at the bottom of the first page, sir?
It is.
He can snap into a nice guy and a bad guy by a snap of a finger.
You did backhand Pam Hobbs...
...the night you ended up shooting her brother...
- ...correct? - Okay.
- Is that correct? - Yeah. All right.
Is that funny?
Well, it's-- You get tired of talking about it after a while.
I need, for the record, for you to state under oath that you did...
- I did. - ...backhand Pam Hobbs.
It was over a jealousy of a woman.
I was just trying to get away and calm down, cool off...
...and come back home, and he wouldn't let me have the keys.
So he punched me pretty hard that day.
Were you jealous over the attention that Pam gave to Stevie?
- No. - Did you compete with Stevie...
- ...for Pam's attention? - No.
He had made a comment to his mom that I paid more attention to my son...
...than I did, you know, being a wife, so....
Stevie started talking to me probably when he was about 6 years old...
...and he wanted to know if I could keep a secret.
And I told him, yeah, because we were really-- We were very, very close.
Kind of like, you know, grew up together.
Because I was 8 years old when he was born.
Daddy Terry, as he called him, was mean to him.
And that he-- He treated him different than Amanda.
The very first thing he ever told me is about how he would whup him.
Make him hold his hands up in the air...
...and he would hold him by the hair of his head...
...while he was whupping him.
He'd hold their hands in the air as he whipped them.
Sometimes when he whipped Stevie, he would leave belt marks on him.
- Is that true? - No.
- Did you whip Stevie with a belt? - Yes.
Is it true that you whipped Stevie and made him hold his hands up in the air?
I didn't want to hit him on the hands.
- So that's true? - Yes.
The only thing that's not true about paragraph number 10...
....is that you would leave belt marks on him?
Not that I recall.
Stevie had a belt mark on him, and I asked Pam who whipped him.
I thought she had and she said Terry did.
She didn't want to tell at first, but she finally told me.
Stevie never would tell us because he's afraid he'd get beat to death...
...or whatever when he got home.
And about locking him up in the closet if he didn't do what he was told...
...right when he was told.
I lived with them.
I was around them off and on. It was a happy time.
I've got pictures...
...everybody's smiling, everybody's happy.
Everybody's swimming, everybody's having a good time.
There was no fighting and screaming and hollering...
...and beating the kids and stuff like that.
I can't say, "I wish he wouldn't have married her." I can now.
Back then I didn't know her enough to say:
But I do now, so:
Then he got into more detail about things that were happening about....
Terry would come into his room while he was asleep or going to sleep...
...and he would make Stevie watch him masturbate.
It progressed so much that he started making Stevie mess with Amanda.
- Is that true, sir? - No, it's not true.
Can you think of any reason that Judy Sadler would say that about you...
- ...if she had not heard that from Stevie? - You'd have to ask Judy.
- Can you think of any reason? - No.
She's told me about that, but I really feel like, if that was true...
...why didn't you say that 16, 17, or 18 years ago?
Why do you wait this long to say it?
Because maybe if it would have been true and she said something...
...then my mom would've kept me, she would've fought for me.
This is kind of a new thing for y'all, this therapy stuff...
...so that's pretty stressful. But you'll get comfortable with that.
"Guilt. I feel guilty all the time." Can you put a finger on the guilt?
- Where's that guilt coming from? - I don't know.
Just can't seem to pick it out?
Attached here, too, is exhibit one, pages from Amanda Hobbs' journal...
...in her handwriting.
"You know, I think I'm the only 19-year-old that can't remember...
...what happened in my life 10 years ago.
Was I traumatised as a child that I had to turn to drugs to forget about it?
I used to tell my mom, 'My dad messed with me.'
I honestly don't remember.
I used to dream about my dad having sex with me, but it was just a dream.
As far as I remember, my dad never touched me sexually...
...but he beat the hell out of me."
He hit me one time with a belt, but he used the buckle.
And it left a welt, probably that thick, across my back and it was purple.
Is it still your testimony you never hit your daughter?
- Correct. - You never sexually molested her?
Never one time.
When we talk about emotional or other problems your daughter has had...
...you do not feel you are responsible for any of those.
- Is that correct? - Correct.
I know Stevie asked me about two weeks before he was murdered...
...to leave Terry, and I asked him why.
And he said, "He loves Amanda, but he don't love me."
I feel like I'm putting the pieces of a puzzle together and I'm so scared.
Talking to Terry over things that's happened and all that...
...they did their job, they got the right ones, and all this.
I just want the truth. I want the answers.
Since the programme aired, convictions were handed down...
...to all three of the accused teenagers, and it became undeniable...
...that the brutal murders had been part of a Satanic ritual.
Back with us today, Pam and Terry Hobbs.
I mean, all murder is horrible.
Is the manner of his, the specific manner in which he died...
...is that something that will always haunt you?
Yeah, I'll go to my grave with it, thinking about it.
I realise my son is in a better place.
I got a phone call back in 2003 about the Hobbs knives...
...that Pam discovered when their marriage went south.
What stuck out to our attention is Stevie's knife in there.
According to Pam, that knife would have been in the boy's pocket...
...the day that he was murdered, and so that was very interesting.
How did he get it? More important, when did he get it?
Pam says she knows Stevie Branch had it until he died. Terry Hobbs says....
I was his dad, I was acting as a responsible parent.
Not letting a 6-, 7-, 8-year-old little boy carry a pocket knife.
Aren't you aware that his mommy, his mother...
...said that he carried the knife with him up until the time that he disappeared?
So?
And she stated that she didn't trust...
...the prosecution and she wanted to turn it over to the defence.
I'm asking if it surprised you, given the fact that the West Memphis Police...
...has spent so much time and so much money over the years...
...saying they got it right, that when DNA attributed to someone else...
...was found in the ligature of one of the victims...
...that they attributed it to secondary transfer?
- What if it was secondary transfer? - What if it wasn't?
- What are you saying? - I'm saying there could be a question...
...about whether or not you were somehow involved in these crimes.
Well, who says that?
How do you explain Mr Jacoby's DNA?
- Which is the second-- - I have no explanation for that.
- Objection to form-- - We was in them woods all night.
The first time I heard about DNA was...
...the lack of DNA at the crime scene.
The first time I heard about my DNA, it was just shock therapy, I think.
Telling me that they found my DNA at the crime scene.
Sleepless nights, you know, going over and over...
...trying to see if there was something you missed or heard or....
It's your testimony Mr Jacoby was with you all night in the woods?
- We were together quite a bit that night. - No, that's not my question.
You testified earlier that you and Mr Jacoby...
...were together all night until it was time...
- ...for him to go to work. - Exactly.
- Is that your story, or did it change? - No, we were.
So I'm at home and I hear a knock on the door.
And it's Terry and Amanda.
I ask him what's he doing. He says:
"Oh, looking for Stevie, he was supposed to be home."
"Terry and Amanda came inside my house.
Amanda played with toys and Terry and I sat down and played guitars...
...for up to one hour." You've already stated that it's possible...
...you went to David's house and played guitars for one hour.
- I didn't say that. - You said that in your last deposition.
I don't recall playing the guitars.
I went over to see if David would help me look for the three little boys.
"Pretty Woman," Roy Orbison.
I handed him my guitar and asked him to play that part of that song again...
...so I could get it down and he-- We did that two or three times...
...you know, before I finally got it right.
So, you know, a little time went by and he says:
"Well, you know, I need to go look for Stevie."
I said, "Terry, let me know. Let me know where you find him."
Did you see Stevie at all that day, May the 5th?
No, I did not.
Did you see any of the three boys that day?
No, I did not.
I think the timeframe is what pulled us in more than anything else...
...because I was like, "Wait a minute."
We went to church every Wednesday at the same time.
We left about 6:30 every single Wednesday, we never missed church.
And we saw them out there.
Terry Hobbs and Steven Branch lived three houses down from us...
...on South McAuley.
About 6:30, we came out the door and Steven was in front on his bike.
Christopher and Michael were running behind him...
...and they zoomed out real fast.
I told Christopher, I yelled to him, "You need to go home.
Your brother said to go home."
He said, "I don't have to do what you tell me to do."
And I saw Terry walking down the sidewalk, and he was saying:
"Y'all come back down here," and they all went in that direction...
...toward him and we got in the car and went to church.
The next day at school, Ryan came up to us and he said...
...they couldn't find his brother, his brother didn't come home.
I told him, "I saw your brother, I talked to him.
I told him to come home. What are you talking about?"
He was really devastated, he was crying.
And he said that they found his brother, and he wasn't alive anymore.
We knew we saw him...
...but we thought, "There, his dad was out there with him.
Surely, they told him that they were down there."
So we thought all this time that they already knew.
If deemed credible, it's more damning than even the DNA evidence, you know.
I mean, the last person to be in the presence of these three victims.
By denying that occurred, rather than offering any explanation of it...
...it's awfully powerful stuff.
These people here were never interviewed.
They were just neighbours of Hobbs.
Hobbs wasn't interviewed. Didn't do a neighbourhood.
They'll swear on a stack of Bibles that they saw Terry Hobbs...
- ...with the three children around 6:30. - I don't know how many years...
...before anybody had asked me anything about it too.
You say you were not ever alone...
...on the night of May 5th and the morning of May 6th...
...and yet David Jacoby says you left his house twice, alone.
What Jacoby has told us so far...
...is that it could be two hours where Terry Hobbs can't be accounted for.
I'm saying that you don't have an alibi witness...
...for two to two and a half hours on the evening of the murders.
- From 6 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. - I don't know.
- Does that concern you? - No.
Hello?
Hey. Had me a visitor today.
John, what's--? John Douglas?
John's the FBI.
What'd he say?
There's a bunch of discrepancies on where I said where we're at...
...and where you say we were at, and it just....
I don't give a shit what them people got to say...
...about where I was at and what time I was there.
We don't have to answer to them people.
David is his primary alibi...
...and what he has done in the past, he's fed information to David...
...putting them together.
I don't know, from what I said and what you said...
...and what they're telling me, 6:30 to 9:30's really fucked up.
Six-thirty to nine-thirty.
I don't know what they're playing....
We rode around looking for three little boys.
We got out and we did a little walking, looking for three little boys.
I went and picked my wife up at 9:00.
"Where did you ride around, Mr Hobbs?" West Memphis.
What?
You was with me, David.
You remember that?
Jacoby is starting to realise that he was being set up...
...by Terry Hobbs as an alibi.
Well, we know we didn't do it, okay?
The police know who done it...
...and they're sitting in prison.
At the time, I wasn't looking for three murdered kids.
I was helping my friend look for his kid...
...and who happened to be with another kid...
...who happened to be with another kid.
- So I mean, and what upsets me is.... - Yeah.
I gotta stop with the camera, here it goes.
It just gets me that he didn't come back, you know? Fuck.
Why do you not come back to your friend's house to help you...
- ...if you can't find your kid? - Yeah.
I stopped myself from saying that he did it...
...you know, in all these years.
I've actually, you know, said he couldn't....
It gets to the point, I'd give my life to know the fucking truth.
Fucking Terry.
But I've been that little kid, you know?
- You been that step--? That stepchild? - That stepkid, yeah.
That gets his ass whupped at the drop of a hat for--
You know, for something somebody else's done.
And you catch what's built up from everybody else.
And that, I felt that with Stevie. I mean, like with the marbles.
He's throwing marbles and bouncing them off the wall.
Terry is telling him, "I'm gonna bust your ass. Quit.
Stevie, I'm gonna bust your ass. Stevie, quit.
Stevie, quit. I'm gonna tell you one more time, Stevie."
And, you know, you just want-- You wanna get that last marble.
And Stevie's looking like that last marble's fixing to come again...
...and I said, you know, "Sit down, let me show you how we played marbles."
And it got Terry, you know, off of him, and....
Terry hated him.
What he did to him to make him hate him, I don't know.
Stevie was scared of Terry.
He was hid in the closet, and I asked him why he was hid in a closet.
You know, he had a mishap in his underwear...
...and Daddy Terry would whip him.
And one time he had thrown him against the wall.
I do not believe the homicide was planned.
This person responsible for the murders lost control and had to kill them.
They were already heading that way, he said, "Get back down to the house."
And they passed him, they were laughing and playing.
We thought it was a normal day.
It was things we saw them do all the time.
You were not angry in the sense that you become physically abusive?
Correct.
These young boys were overpowered.
- You do not fly into rages? - Correct.
- And you do not beat your children? - Never.
If he was capable of doing this, and I can almost picture it...
...that he freaked out, and the other two boys being there....
They've got skull fractures, they've got brain injuries.
If it had been an accident, the Terry Hobbs that I know...
...no, I don't think that he would say that, "I accidentally did this.
I'm sorry," and turn himself in for it.
These children were alive until they inhaled water and drowned.
To do what he did to the children, hide the clothing, hide the children...
...he got in water, got muddy.
There's been some discussion about you doing laundry...
...the evening of the 5th or the morning of the 6th.
- Recall that? - It didn't happen.
- You didn't do laundry? - No.
I saw him cleaning. I saw him washing clothes.
I saw him in Stevie's room.
I mean, he had bleach and everything and was cleaning.
I had never seen Terry clean anything...
...the whole time I had known him.
When he took me to work, I believe Terry changed into a purple tank top...
...a pair of shorts and his LA Gear tennis shoes.
He's muddy, he has to change his clothing.
When he picked me up from work...
...he was in blue jeans and flannel top shirt on.
He has to get prepared and wait to be interviewed.
And you have a dispute with every single one of your alibi witnesses.
If you put all of these statements together...
...and all the evidence together that I've just run through...
...and you're the police...
...wouldn't you wanna look at Terry Hobbs for this murder?
You'd have to look at Terry Hobbs.
From an investigative perspective...
...it solidifies Terry Hobbs as the principal suspect.
It's gonna be tough for someone like him to confess.
If he is in fact the guy, it's extremely tough.
He's had 18 years to think about it. He's got an answer for everything.
You throw him a pitch, he's got it. You know, he knows how to hit it.
The attorney general's office has taken the position...
...that not only should these wrongly convicted young men...
...not have the opportunity to prove their innocence...
...but that no one ever in Arkansas...
...be given that opportunity on the grounds that Arkansas...
...is incapable of ever convicting anyone wrongly.
It's one thing to build perception that there's something wrong.
It's another thing to get a formal judgement overturning it.
There are still some formidable legal obstacles...
...to opening that door.
Tell us why you're here today.
I'm here for justice and the real killer to be found out.
If I've had to be the spotlight of people thinking I was involved...
...if that kept the case alive to get where we are today...
...I'd turn around and do it all over again.
Talk about what's been so impactful in this case that has changed your mind.
Because that day, you believed he was the killer.
That day I believed what the state told me.
And it took quite a while of being blinded...
...and when I finally got my answers...
...none of the roads led to the three in prison.
All the roads and all the evidence lead to Terry Wayne Hobbs.
This case is outrageous.
People need to get involved and help on this case. I am happy to get involved...
...donating my time, time from my law firm, pro bono...
...because these young men need a fair trial.
If they're convicted again? Fine. But do it fair. Do it constitutionally.
It's an endurance test to keep up with this.
I think I was in my late 20s when I first heard about it.
I am now 45.
We'd buy Doritos and Skittles and M&M's.
And we'd sit down, and I'll have napkins and then Damien would say:
"All right, put out your napkin, okay, try this, all right.
One Ruffle, two orange Skittles.
All right, get the root beer ready.
Now eat that, drink that at the same time, isn't that crazy?"
It's a long process. We've all had to educate ourselves and learn patience.
We'd make a small breakthrough...
...or something and Lorri and I would have a long two-hour phone call.
We'd get off the phone...
...think this is gonna be a happy ending. There's gotta be a happy ending to this.
One thing that could happen is they could say no.
"Judge Burnett was right.
You lose, no new hearing, Damien. Sorry, done."
And then he literally is done in the Arkansas court.
The oral argument today...
...is Damien Wayne Echols v. the State of Arkansas.
So we have a situation here where the Arkansas legislature...
...passed these statutes out of, quote, "In response to nationwide concerns...
...that innocent persons were being imprisoned...
...and even executed for crimes that they did not commit."
However, the state takes the position...
...that the only evidence other than DNA allowed in a DNA action in this state...
...is evidence of guilt.
The fact of the matter is that DNA evidence...
...that couldn't have been obtained 15 years ago...
...begins to make things relevant.
Connect to other evidence that did not appear relevant 15 years ago.
So your interpretation is it's not really just new scientific evidence.
It's new evidence across the board that'll come?
Yes, Your Honour.
The animating purpose of this statute...
...is not to do away with finality of judgements...
...but to test evidence of innocence.
Doesn't that include the last 17 years?
No, well, I'm sorry. Does it include the last...?
The last 17 years, or are you limiting the evidence that can be presented?
You can't bring in evidence that is just further reweighing of evidence...
...that state post-conviction processes permit you to make in other forums.
Now certainly he would like to have a much freer reign...
...to go back to court and bring in 17 years' worth of claims...
...that have been made and retry his case.
Counsellor, what harm is there in allowing him to present the evidence...
- ...from the last 17 years? - I'm sorry?
What harm is there to--? In allowing him to present all evidence?
The harm is in the finality of a criminal judgement...
...that is not demonstrated to have any constitutional...
...or procedural defect and just to try it again. I mean....
We would submit that the court is to consider the DNA evidence...
...along with all other evidence, whether or not admitted at the first trial.
All simply means all.
I talked to him, actually, right after the hearing.
Guards came into his cell...
...and took everything, everything he owns. All of his books.
Fifty-one books, his journals, his shoes.
When he asked why they were doing that...
...they said they were sick of seeing him on the news.
It's terribly abusive. They were horribly abusive to him.
They don't like the death-row thing.
They're trying to get Damien Echols off of death row...
...so they can put two new people in there...
...and you know who them two new people is?
Don't even say it.
Me and you.
I ain't never felt the need to have to...
...try to defend somebody in our family before...
...but now I feel like my brother's getting a bad rap.
Somebody's got to say something.
He, obviously, is just gonna keep letting it go and letting it go...
...because he feels like he's had enough, you know, and it's--
Somebody needs to say something.
If they're trying to put the blame on someone...
...they need to dig deeper and find that someone.
Received December 11th at 11:02 a.m.
Ummm.... Hello. I need to speak to somebody...
...so please have someone call me.
- Marker. - State your name, please.
- Blake Sisk. - How old are you?
- Twenty years old. - Okay.
The other day, the tipline got a call. This young man had been a friend...
...of Michael Hobbs Jr., who is the nephew of Terry Hobbs.
Michael Hobbs Jr. lives in a town called Mountain Home, Arkansas.
His dad, Michael Hobbs Sr., runs a restaurant there...
...and they've lived there for a long time.
First thing he told us was that when he was about 12 or 13...
...he and Michael Hobbs Jr. had been playing football in the yard.
When they got done playing football, they came into the house...
...got a drink and were gonna go to the basement to play pool.
Michael said, you know, that his uncle and dad...
...were in their downstairs basement...
...and we were gonna go downstairs, but his dad hollered...
...you know, "Don't come down here, we're busy talking."
So me and Michael decided to listen in.
Michael Hobbs Jr. told the witness...
...that his dad was down there with his uncle...
...sounding like he might have been crying, saying:
"I'm sorry for what happened and I regret it."
Michael's dad was just consoling him about, you know, the situation...
...and everything would be all right. "You're not in any trouble."
A number of years later, he and a friend...
...were picked up by Michael Hobbs Jr. in Michael Hobbs Jr.'s truck.
My name's Cody Gott. This is fine.
You can use this for whatever you need to use it for. You have my permission.
When he picked us up, it was like-- It wasn't the same Michael that I--
You know what I mean? He wasn't....
Wasn't in the same mood that he usually is.
He's usually outgoing, like, ready to go do something.
Ready to talk, ready to-- And he was just real quiet.
He wasn't as talkative, and I asked him what was going on and he....
"What's up, man?"
And he said, he told me that:
"My uncle Terry, he killed those kids...
...in that case, in the West Memphis Three case."
And then he was like, well, "My dad told me that my uncle's the one...
...who murdered those three kids and it's been, you know, on my mind all day.
It's been just running through my head."
And I was just in shock, I didn't really know what to say.
Then, according to Michael Hobbs Jr., the second witness says...
...that his dad called this, quote, "the Hobbs' family secret," close quote.
He said, "Only me, my dad, my uncle"...
...and I think maybe his mom...
...and someone else in the family might have knew.
It might have been the other brother.
He called it the Hobbs' family secret, and he said:
"If they knew I told you, I would be in deep crap."
There was one third friend that they thought...
...might also have some information. What this third witness told me:
"Michael Hobbs Jr., a third friend and I were playing pool in the basement.
During the game, the third friend said something...
...about the West Memphis Three case."
Then this young man, the third witness, asked:
"What's the West Memphis Three case?"
Might be the only teenager in Arkansas...
...who didn't know what the West Memphis Three case was.
He asked that question and Michael Hobbs Jr...
...responded to him by saying, quote:
"My uncle killed three kids in West Memphis," close quote.
And according to this third witness, Michael Hobbs Jr...
...was dead serious when he said this. He was not fooling around.
In addition to getting them to sign the declarations under penalty of perjury...
...they all took polygraph examinations.
The polygraph examiner concluded that these three young men...
...were absolutely telling the truth about what they heard Michael Hobbs Jr. say.
I don't even think Michael knows why he did it.
I just-- You know, he knows it happened, he knows he did it.
And it was his dad-- His dad is-- Probably would know...
...you know, why he did it.
We don't have any power as defence attorneys...
...to call Michael Hobbs Sr. into my office and to ask him to tell me...
...whether he called this the Hobbs' family secret and why he did.
The prosecutor can issue a grand jury subpoena...
...and ask Michael Hobbs Sr. in the grand jury...
...where he's under penalty of perjury if he lies, "Did you say this?
Why'd you say it? What did you mean?"
And I think that's the kind of information...
...that only the prosecutor can get that could really crack this wide open.
I don't give a shit what happened 17 years ago.
I know what didn't happen.
Me and you didn't do nothing wrong.
So fuck them motherfuckers.
We're proud people. We don't have no reason to tuck our head.
You hit a bump in the road, you wasn't expecting a speed bump being there...
...but you pick yourself up on other side of that speed bump...
...and go, "Damn, I didn't see that one coming," and keep on going.
Pam's a speed bump. I'll put her that way.
Was Terry capable? Did Terry do it?
Did I stay with a man that possibly murdered my child?
And it does raise a lot of questions.
The court rejected every single thing that the state argued.
Basically saying Burnett was wrong in not allowing a hearing based on DNA.
One, by one, by one. Just no, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Finally the Supreme Court has ruled in our favour.
We could not be more excited. It was unanimous.
This is huge for Arkansas.
The Supreme Court is-- Has ruled in our favour.
The State Supreme Court is on our side.
Finally. We won. We won.
The mother of Stevie Branch, one of the three 8-year-olds killed...
...in that murder, joins us now on the phone.
What is your reaction to the ruling by the Arkansas Supreme Court...
...that the killers can have a new hearing?
My reaction to it is...
...now with the DNA evidence and things...
...that doesn't point to the three men convicted...
...that lets me know for sure they didn't lay a hand on my son.
They keep constantly pushing the date of the hearing back.
First they told us it was gonna be in June.
Then they told us it was gonna be in October.
Now they've pushed it all the way back to December.
The wake of the victory was probably...
...the most difficult and frustrating time for Lorri of all.
"Dearest Lorri, you never, ever need to apologise for how you are feeling.
I totally understand what you said, and why you said it...
...and I'm glad you felt you could say it to me.
This situation is so very hard.
You and Damien have been treading water for years...
...and the shore never seems to get any closer.
It's no wonder you feel like giving up."
After years and years of filing and hear-- You know, this and that...
...and never-ending bureaucracy...
...it keeps going back and forth.
To go 16 or 17 years and finally have what was a remarkable victory...
...and not simply for the three...
...but about the whole nature of DNA testing in Arkansas.
Then say, "Well, when will this actually lead to Damien being released?"
And the answer being, you know, who knows?
"It took me a while to understand what you must have learned long ago.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, comes easily with this case.
The breakthroughs are small...
...and the obstacles never seem to decrease in size.
Any small piece of progress is clawed from unforgiving rock.
All we can do is keep going.
If we keep on pounding on the wall, it will break, because it must break.
All things eventually break.
I would love to see photos of the 1920s house in Garton when you have them.
It sounds wonderful.
Sending much love to you always, Fran."
You're so worn down...
...you know, you might get something like say a common cold...
...and the next thing you know, you're laying in bed sick for next six months.
Damien, you know, he's struggling...
...because of the health issues he's facing in prison...
...just not having adequate nutrition, not being able to go into the sunlight.
You know, lack of vitamin D. His eyesight is starting to dim.
Everything in your body is just hurting and shut down.
It made me wanna be nicer to you.
It did!
Sometimes it appears to me that...
...the attitude of the players involved in this case are:
"Let's sweep this under the rug, let's hope it goes away."
No one wants to admit they made a mistake.
What about the lawsuits that are gonna follow?
And who cares about that issue?
Let's just do the right thing, it's simple to do the right thing.
Something we'd planned on doing was to try to get the state to agree:
"Let's just go right to the new trial, because, of course...
...Damien and Jason and Jessie are sitting in the cooler...
...each time there's a delay. Let's get to it."
So the defence decided to approach the state and say:
"Hey, let's skip the evidentiary hearing and just go straight to a new trial."
Two weeks ago yesterday, we sent Patrick Benca, our local counsel...
...in to have a lunch meeting with Dustin McDaniel, the attorney general.
I've known Dustin from law school and I knew he'd be approachable about it.
I wasn't sure whether he would take it in consideration.
Matter of fact, during the lunch he said to me, "That's a big ask."
But I felt that he was listening to everything that I had to say.
Much to our surprise, the discussions progressed sort of away...
...from the "agree to the new trial" idea to...
...is there a way to reach a practical resolution of this case for everybody?
The attorney general brought in...
...Scott Ellington, a circuit county prosecutor.
He came to Little Rock with a bunch of his lawyers.
The defence attorneys have maintained complete innocence...
...on behalf of the defendants all this time.
I mean, I don't underestimate our ability to have obtained convictions...
...in these cases.
But I wasn't looking forward to having to go to trial in this case...
...because of the deterioration of evidence.
Memories lost. You know, stories changed.
Every time there was a filing, you know, there was a DNA....
Came out in the paper that there's new DNA, new DNA.
I was not looking forward to that.
We didn't want to show weakness in maintaining the judgement...
...so one of our positions was the state is not making an offer.
The state said they're guilty. Our guys said they're innocent.
How do you bridge those two gaps?
There's only a couple of options in between.
We started making our pitches.
We started making our pitch for the Alford plea...
...which we talked about before going in.
It's not a perfect resolution. It will be a guilty plea...
...but it's a very, very rare and unique kind of guilty plea...
...where you get to maintain your innocence.
Prosecutors hardly ever allow this...
...and judges have the right to say, "We're not gonna accept it...
...because you can't maintain innocence and plead guilty at the same time."
It kind of seems oxymoronic.
I'm-- I guess I'm kind of a "shoot from the hip" guy to start with.
I kind of jumped on it real quick and then the attorney general and I...
...visited just briefly and he was like:
"Are you sure that you want to agree to this?
Are you sure this is the right thing for you, politically?"
Because he knows I'm elected as a prosecutor.
And this could backfire.
We knew what we needed to make this deal, which is really only two points.
We needed it to be a deal...
...where the West Memphis Three could maintain their innocence.
We needed it to be a deal where they got out of prison the day it was entered.
Not two years from now. Not, "We'll consider you for parole."
Not 10 years more.
Enter the plea, maintain your innocence, get out of jail.
This notice was released today out of the Craighead County Circuit Court.
It's vague, saying that the court will take up certain matters...
...pertaining to the West Memphis Three case tomorrow.
It went to Damien first...
...and Damien readily accepted it.
- How you doing? - Then the deal went to Jessie.
- Been a while. - It has been a while.
- And Jessie accepted it. - We're almost home.
Which means by the time it got to Jason, Jason had the full veto power.
If he said yes, the deal would work for everybody.
If he said no, everybody was left right where they were, in prison.
I come home, turn the TV on, it's all over TV.
Rumour mill got started this afternoon, and it's all over the place...
...but I think everything's gonna work out fine in the morning.
His position was, "I, Jason, would rather stay in jail...
...and fight this with my last dying breath...
...until somebody recognises I am 100 percent innocent."
There are reports that at least two of the infamous West Memphis Three...
...could be released from prison.
And I told him that I wanted three or nothing.
I didn't sleep much. I think the last time I looked at the clock...
...it was 4:00 this morning.
Mixed emotions, all type of things, so....
What do you think is going to happen?
Are you pretty sure, are you not sure, you doubtful this would happen?
I'm not sure, I'm doubtful, I don't know.
I'm just a pawn in this, just like they are.
They've been a pawn in this the whole time.
I have to say, because I've been in the Arkansas Department of Correction...
...I understand where they're coming from.
If I had to roll the dice for my freedom...
...or get out today by copping to a lesser plea...
...I would probably take the plea to get out of prison.
But then I'm stuck for life with the stigma, while the real killer walks free.
- Who do you believe is the real killer? - This is not justice!
- No comment. - No comment?
- Do you feel any relief? - No.
None?
I gotta go.
What are you gonna do next, Terry?
Hey, hey, Terry, just for a second....
There's the baby-killer. Talk to him.
This is a free world. I can say what I want.
Freedom of speech, First Amendment right.
I contacted the other attorneys, asking them what was up.
If they knew anything that was going on.
They really indicated that they didn't know.
Jason was quite resolute...
...and not agreeing to taking the Alford plea.
And, I mean, really that's about...
...the biggest illustration of innocence that you could ever imagine.
But this was really coming to a head...
...and we didn't know how long this offer was gonna be on the table.
And it was there for the taking.
We were trying to figure out alternate ways to get in touch with him.
Somebody who cares about him and loves him needs to be talking to him.
- We need to get Holly. - It's busy.
I'm just gonna keep dialling over and over.
You know, over the years we've just grown to be....
I mean, I'm closer to Jason Baldwin than I am to many people...
...that I have known my entire life.
Everybody just cannot believe that he would choose to stay in prison...
...when he can walk out, no matter what the reasons are.
I got a call from Lorri.
She said, "I'm gonna ask Eddie Vedder to call you."
I was trying to explain to Jason, look, anyone's gonna have to understand...
...locally and globally...
...State of Arkansas is not gonna let go of three convicted child murderers...
...based on time served. It's implied that they don't have enough.
They don't have enough to keep them in. They don't have enough to win a trial.
I was able to get a call in to the prison to have Jason give me a call.
He said, "This isn't fair.
I don't wanna concede anything to the state."
He did not wanna talk about it, and he didn't call back.
And I was devastated.
I believed in his decision, and I didn't wanna question it.
I would never ask another man to compromise his ideals.
But it was so close to freedom.
It was unbearable.
Not hearing from him...
...and not knowing what he was thinking was unbearable.
Jason Baldwin is 16 years old.
He's been in jail for months.
And he's about to enter a trial...
...where prosecutors are going to ask for the death sentence.
He's offered two deals in secret...
...if he would testify that Echols had done the killing.
He tells the prosecutors, "No, that would be a lie.
My mother raised me better than that."
The 16-year-old refused, not once, but twice.
At 16 years old, it never even crossed his mind...
...to throw somebody under the bus to save his own skin.
So Monday night, I get this call from him.
He says, "Neither option is really fair."
I said to him, "If you wanted to do something you didn't feel right about...
...you could have done that 18 years ago and gone free."
And he said, "Yeah, but the difference is, this time...
...I can set Damien free by my decision."
I mean, that was his best friend, you know.
This deal sucks, but we want their freedom.
All rise.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Be seated, those of you who can.
We are still waiting to find out....
I am David Laser, Circuit Judge of Division 9, the Second Judicial District.
--continue today for this 11:00 hearing on the West Memphis Three.
Will they be set free today?
Answer still unknown but, of course, we will continue....
Mr Echols, Mr Baldwin, Mr Misskelley...
...if you would stand, please, and face the court.
Spend a lot of time explaining it. They had a private, closed-door hearing....
Mr Echols, how do you wish to plead in this case?
Your Honour, I am innocent of these charges...
...but I'm entering an Alford guilty plea today based on advice of my council.
And my understanding that it's in my best interest to do so...
...given the entire record of the case.
Same as relates to you, Mr Misskelley. How do you wish to plead?
I'm pleading guilty under North Carolina v. Alford in the Arkansas rules.
Although I am innocent.
This is-- And this plea is in my best interest.
Everybody just be patient. We're waiting too, like everyone else.
Just gotta stay in place.
Mr Baldwin, how do you choose to plead in this case?
Your Honour, first of all I am innocent of murdering...
...Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Steven Branch.
However, after serving 18 years in the penitentiary for such...
...I agree that it's in the state's best interest, as well as my own...
...that based upon North Carolina v. Alford...
...that I plead guilty for first-degree murder for those crimes.
All right.
The court finds that there is a factual basis for the plea...
...the pleas are voluntary and will be accepted and received by the court.
I'm aware of the controversy that's existed.
I'm aware of the involvement of the people in this case.
I don't think it'll make the pain go away to the victims' families.
I don't think it will take away a minute of the 18 years...
...that these three young men served...
...in the Arkansas Department of Corrections.
What I've just described is tragedy on all sides.
And I commend people in the case that have assisted towards the end...
...of seeing that justice is served to the best that we can do.
The tremendous judge.
He didn't have to say the things that he did at the end.
Sometimes outside help is in fact a big help...
...and for those of you who have been a participant in that regard...
...that are here, I commend you personally and publicly...
...for having done that.
It was great to see a crowd of people outside of the courthouse...
...you know, 18 years ago were screaming for blood.
And Damien, Jessie and Jason walked out with their hands held high...
...and the crowd is cheering and supporting them.
Some are happy, some are angry and some are perplexed...
...and that's the case at the end of every trial, and this one is no different.
First of all, I understand that nobody in that room...
...wanted to hear from me, particularly.
I needed to be heard by my voters...
...and I needed to offer some explanation.
I'll tell you, let me tell you this.
This judge was most likely going to grant a new trial.
As far as gathering up evidence, I hadn't gotten there yet.
I've not reviewed reams and reams and volumes and boxes and boxes...
...but the evidence I've seen, I believe these guys are guilty.
I know they pled guilty.
With their entry of a plea of guilty...
...we have removed the question...
...of them filing a civil law suit against the state...
...that could result in many millions of dollars.
I mean, because you have three individuals...
...times 18 years is 54, I mean, so, 60ish?
I have spoken with members of victims' families...
...and I can tell you that they are still suffering the loss of the little boys.
We put to rest a question for these families...
...of the little boys that were killed.
These three individuals pled guilty to the murder...
...of those three little boys that day.
That put that matter to rest.
Period. End of sentence.
I don't even know where to begin.
I guess we eat, right?
I was dead-set against this, like a mule. And I am not moving an inch.
I was just trapped up in it, just by myself.
You reminded me that I'm not by myself and I gotta think of everybody.
I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.
I'm just enjoying the moment, right?
I think that's cheese.
- You think it's what? - There's cheese in there.
- Yeah. Cheese. Have you had cheese? - Yeah, but not in a salad.
- All right, I'm done with the salad. - Okay, let's move on.
And it's not just this war between one person and the state.
It is everybody involved, you know, and it was, like, how could I forget?
Mom!
I still feel like it's a dream.
I just talked to you Monday and you didn't tell me nothing.
- I wanted to. - Free man.
- My suitcase. Check it out, pretty cool. - I like that.
I called him yesterday and said, "I got a little suitcase and it's all packed."
And he said, "I've never had a suitcase before."
It's these things.
- Gosh, I love you so much. - I love you too.
Every time I turn around, you wanna talk to me.
Look, every time I turn around. It's great. It's a great feeling.
I'm used to the guards being around me all the time.
Every now and then, I turn around, make sure...
...you know, damn, is this really real?
Hey, man. How you doing, man?
It's a blessing, you know, to be here with my family and friends.
Last time I seen them, we was all kids and everything.
And here we are, grown up now.
That's really what kept me going over the years.
When are you gonna come to the house and say hi?
Prison is really hard.
You know, if I could stay out of prison, I could go anywhere I want to, free man.
All I just got to do is, you know, just stay out of trouble.
That's why I'm trying to do things different in my life.
So I know I can do it.
I think we all had our mental image of what this was gonna be at the end.
Which was three of these guys walking out of the courtroom exonerated.
Everything I had in the prison, I carried out in one small envelope.
Everything else, when they told me I was leaving...
...they said, "Pack up whatever you wanna take."
I just threw it all in the garbage and left it.